Caste clamour on Internet sets in!

This is an article published in Indian Express dated 12th June, 2010. The link to this article is given below.

Internet has given castes a new dais. For identity-hungry castes this new domain called the ‘Web’ has just added fire to the frenzied factionalism. Ashok Kumar finds out.

Indian subcontinent is not only a land of various flora and fauna, but also, undeniably, the land of thousands of castes. You as a person can love these castes or hate them but you certainly cannot ignore them because it is they, which define the bottom lines of socio-politico-cultural-economical India.

Sounds outdated, on the face of it! You might even question the validity of above proposition in the economically liberalised and upwardly mobile developing India which boasts of one of the best tech schools in the form of Indian Institutes of Technology and Business schools like the branded Indian Institutes of Management.

But the achievements of these world-class institutes and other science-generated heights does not in any way negate the absolute presence which the age-old caste system of India still wields on the enlightened and the ‘not so enlightened Indians.’

In today’s world and times whatever matters has to find its presence on the worldwide website. Standing by this fact how could the varied castes of India who certainly has a say in almost all the trades can be oblivious of the presence of Web. Take any major caste of India and it has its presence in the form of its own Web pages or Websites.

The moot question, then arises, is, what is the drive, which makes these Websites, a necessity in todays’ era. And what all is spread on these Websites in the form of content and information and how do these Websites give the respective castes an edge over others, who are yet to discover themselves on this unexplored domain.

The maiden glimpse of all these Websites, displaying caste-based information is enough to give you an idea of the fuel, which sets the lights on for their existence. It is that quintessential urge to satiate the thirst of ‘identity crisis’. The space available at the World Wide Web provides just another avenue to quench that desire of disclosing one own identity and let the world acknowledge.

Castes in India have been homogenous units, which allow their members to marry in one’s own community. Now, these websites have come as a new help for people looking for the prospective grooms and brides for their children. All those people who are interested in looking for a suitable guy or girl for oneself from one’ own community just need to register on the site of their respective castes and can free themselves from the un-required burden.

The quest for ‘identity’ can also be looked through the names adopted by the caste based websites, the brief history of the origin of the respective castes, pioneering politicians of state and national level, athletes who have represented the country in various sports and the prominent administrative and police officers as also the prominent scientists belonging to the respective communities.

The most surprising part of this caste based information is that they are run by the so called upwardly looking population of their communities which explain that the level of development on the economic and educational front just cannot stop them from actively participation in this display of web identity on the Internet.

Some of the prominent features, which are displayed without many variations by almost all the communities, comprises of their respective histories, people, their distribution according to their spread in different states and districts, gotras or clans, which are like the sub groups of the communities.

The Caste System Today

The caste system is still intact today but the rules are not as rigid as they were in the past. Because of western education, contact with foreigners, media, and modern communications, people are progressive in many aspects. In 1962, a law was passed making it illegal to discriminate against the untouchable castes. In practice however, discrimination still continues today.

In the past, when Brahmins and Chetris came in contact with Sudras, they used to bathe. Now, some people just sprinkle water on their body and some do not even care at all. Today, Brahmins have land, work in the field and are involved in government service. Some Baisya and Sudra caste people are teachers, high officials, and successful politicians. Previously, Brahmins were not subject to the death penalty and were instead given the same status as cows in the Hindu religion. But now, all castes are equally treated by the law. Education is free and open to all castes. Discrimination is only done socially.

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~rotto/caste4.html

Behavior of the high castes

The Brahmins who became scholars of their time and were renowned in their society were called “Rishi” (Saint). The descendants of Rishi Atreya receive “Atreya Gotra”. Those who have “kashyapa gotra” are the descendants of Rishi, Kashyapa and thus, the gotra of the Brahmins indicates who the forefathers are. Besides gotra, all four castes may have family names which are called “Thara” (subcaste). This family name was given later. Probably, the family name was given according to the place where they settled or the occupation they chose. People having different family names may have the same gotra, which indicates that their forefathers were the same. So marriage among the same clan is strictly forbidden.

As there were four castes in Hindu society, intercaste marriage was not allowed in order to keep the characteristics of a caste pure. Dominant and recessive genes were unknown at that time. It was based upon observation. When the Brahmin male or female marry with Chetri or Vaishya female or male, their offspring were placed in the Chetri caste. This was due to the fact bravery was thought to be a dominant character and cleverness a recessive one. Similarly, when a Brahmin, Chetri, or Vaishya married a Sudra caste member, their children became Sudra caste. The Aryans believed this maintained the family characteristics of the four castes.

Brahmins were to teach others. Being teachers, Brahmins had to become models of the society. Cleanliness was an important aspect of that. They cleaned their kitchen after every meal and the house each morning with a mixture of clay and cow dung. The adults of the Brahmin family bathed early each morning and changed into clean clothes. They had to clean the cooking utensils after each use and hang them over the hot stove to dry. They had a practice of drinking only fresh water. After the morning bath and after sunset, meditation was done. Brahmins were not allowed to drink alcohol, eat meat or onion or garlic. Fruits and cows milk were supposed to be consumed.

Brahmins were not allowed to own any land. Their work was to teach and work only for the welfare of the society. People from other castes had to provide food, clothing, and utensils to the Brahmins. For this reason, Chetri and Baishya caste members had to donate food every 15th and 30th day of the lunar calendar, and on festival days. Utensils and clothing were donated when a person died in that society. The earnings of a dead person not only went to the Brahmins, but also to the very poor persons of the society. Those earnings were also used to make memorials like paths, water taps, and public buildings, which could be used by other members of the society.

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~rotto/caste2.html

How did the caste system begin in Hindu society?

Aryans migrated from Central Europe and settled in the very fertile Indus Valley. Aryans were very clever. They implemented division of labor in their society. The most clever members of society were selected and given the task to teach others. The bravest people were selected and given the task to protect society. The dullest types of individuals who were able to tolerate a heavy workload were selected and given the task of supplying labor to others whenever needed. The rest of the people of the society were given the tasks to grow food, produce materials, trade, and supply the goods to others.

As the Aryans were very clever, they found ways to keep the people doing what they had been doing. Thus, they bred four types of new generations. The ones considered most clever whose duty it was to teach were called “Brahmins”. The protectors of society were called “Chetris”. The group of producers and suppliers were called “Baishyas”. And the group of laborers were called “Sudras”.

In Hindu philosophy, every creature in this world is created by the God, Brahma. Brahmins are thought to be created from the mouth of Brahma to symbolize teacher groups. Chetris are thought to be created from the arms of Brahma to symbolize warriors. Baishyas are thought to be created from the lap of Brahma to symbolize a mother feeding her baby. And Sudras are thought to be created from the feet of Brahma to symbolize a weight bearer. Therefore, the Brahmins are the uppermost caste of society, followed by Chetris, Baishyas, and Sudras. The source for proof for this setup is the “Bhaagabad Geeta”, one of the holy books of Hindu religion.

In Nepal however, there are truly only three categories of caste: Tagadhari (twice born), Matwali (liquor drinking) and Pani Nachalne. The Tagadharis include Nepals highest castes: Brahmins, Thakuris, and Chetris. The mid-ranking Matwalis include most of Nepals Tibeto-Burman and Indo-European tribal groups. The Pani Nachalne are untouchables associated with specific traditional occupations. These castes are ranked along an axiom of purity and pollution This caste system was codified in Nepal by the National Legal Code (Muluki Ain) of 1853 by Nepals Rana rulers. It lasted until 1951 when the Ranas were overthrown. It heavily favored the Brahmins and brought ruling against them when violating caste rules.

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~rotto/caste1.html

Presentation at Delhi.

Caste on the web Delhi

The powerpoint presentation attached here has been presented at the Habitat Centre, New Delhi on 1st Dec, 2009 at “The Undisciplined City”.

A gene called caste.

An article published on 16th May, 2010 in Sunday Times.

Ideas are fatal to caste
–E M Forster, in A Passage to India

Vineet Mittal is often teased by his friends for being “a baniya”. Kripashankar Pandey’s colleagues show their reverence by calling him ‘Panditji’. Vishal Singh Rathore’s employees always address him as ‘Thakur sahab’, a clear recognition of his authority. And then there are people who use caste names to hurl insults at others, particularly those at the bottom of the pile. India may be an emerging economy but caste identities remain our mindset. Most “modern” Indians won’t admit it but our conversations and behaviour is peppered with caste references.

Listen in on the urban, the middle-class, the upwardly-mobile Indian. Typically, there are jokes that reinforce caste stereotypes. “My friends who are Sharmas and Guptas often remark — ‘We should live like Ahluwalia (Jats are considered casual and carefree), while I tell them one should study like Sharma (Brahmins are supposed to be scholars) and take care of money like Gupta (baniyas are perceived as wealthy but miserly),” agrees Patiala psychology professor Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia.

The caste system has existed since the Vedic Age, but it was during British rule that the census enumerated Indians by caste. The founding fathers of newly independent India wanted to build a “casteless society” and decided to do away with it as a category. But it didn’t go away.

India may have changed but Indians have not. Psychologist Nirmal Sharma in Chandigarh says that India’s modernization and cosmopolitan culture have failed to abolish caste, which is a constant presence in our lives. “Marriage is the most important decision in an Indian’s life. Look at all the matrimonial ads in newspapers. They are classified caste wise. Brahmins seek Brahmins and Kshatriyas seek their own.”

Sharma adds that even the New Age media could not break down caste barriers.

“A host of matrimonial websites cater exclusively to one caste or the other.”

Then there is the proliferation of caste-based organizations such as the Kshatriya Sabha, Aggarwal Mahasabha, which are ostensibly “community organizations” but are really no more than caste cliques. They are patronized by large sections of the middle class, including politicians and bureaucrats. Sasheej Hegde, professor of sociology at the University of Hyderabad says this reflects the pattern of social transformation in India — castes are being transformed into communities. “This is much more in the political domain than in the social domain but the tendency could undermine the pluralist basis of our socio-political order in the long term,” says Hegde.

Does that mean that the Indian essentially has the caste gene? “The fact that we live in a social set-up defined by caste does not mean we are a casteist society. In fact, not every appeal to caste need translate into casteism,” says Hegde.

Not everyone is so sanguine. A Ramaiah, professor at the Centre for Study of Social Exclusion & Inclusive Policies at Mumbai’s Tata Institute of Social Sciences, insists that most Indians “are always conscious of our caste and the nature of our interaction with fellow Indians depend on the caste he/she belongs to”.

Admittedly, this does not always mean all of us discriminate outright all the time. But it does mean that a study by Indian economist Sukhdeo Thorat and Princeton University sociologist Katherine Newman a few years ago found a low-caste surname a great disadvantage when applying for a job. Applicants with lower-caste surnames would mostly not even be interviewed.

The casteism affects even the affluent dalit. Rashmi Venkatesan, daughter of an IAS officer, recounts her nightmarish search for a house in an upper-caste dominated locality in Bangalore. “I found one house but the landlord put a condition that I won’t cook non-vegetarian meals on the premises. I agreed and paid some token money. As I was getting ready to move in, the landlord discovered that I was a dalit. He immediately returned the advance and said I couldn’t have the house.”

But it is the inter-caste marriage — the actual event and its aftermath — that often reveals the caste gene most starkly. Psychologist Sharma says that even families that allow such unions, generally consider the new (out of caste) member of the family “the outsider and he or she has to make extra effort to mix in…Caste bias is so deeply entrenched in our psyche that we can’t shed it for at least another 200 years.”

Perhaps. But Javeed Alam, Chairman, Indian Council of Social Science Research, says there is reason to hope Indians’ caste gene won’t be a chromosomal cancer for the country. “Caste today is no longer what it was a few decades ago. Even though caste discrimination is present, the caste system has died out. In fact, the struggles of the lower castes have led to the expansion of democracy and the greater democratization of society.”

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Social networking sites have become caste wide.

An article in Times of India dated 27th March, 2010.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Net-is-caste-wide/articleshow/5729775.cms

Social networking sites have become a fertile ground for groups based on ethnicity and caste.

When 3,000 members of an online community of scheduled castes were asked recently whether they felt they could match up to their upper-caste counterparts, one user admitted that his caste identity had been a “hurdle in life”. Another user promptly replied with a prescription: “Ignorance is bliss.” The conversation was then interrupted by a user who accused the two of being undeserving “beggars” who had cornered seats in schools, colleges and government offices. Soon, the thread was ablaze with hundreds of responses in a free-for-all mudslinging competition and a crash course in the choicest Hindi expletives.

Social networking sites Orkut and Facebook have become a fertile ground for scores of groups based on ethnicity and caste. Key in the word ‘caste’ into either site, or indeed others, and up pops a cascading list of virtual caste colonies, some of which aim to unite members and some which spew venom. Orkut has thousands of these communities — for instance, ‘Brahmins Culture and Tradition’ , ‘I Hate Intercaste Marriage’ and ‘The Great Maratha’ — which have hundreds of members.

Interestingly, participants of these groups are increasing rather than dying down. A study by Sunil Gangavane and Urvi Shah, researchers at PUKAR (Partners for Urban Knowledge, Action and Research) found that 32 random Orkut communities based on caste showed an increase of nearly 30,000 members in just three months. Gangavane and Shah, who joined these communities to keep tabs on them, primarily wanted to document the involvement of middleclass youth and their understanding of caste identity in these spaces.

Gangavane says that most members of castebased groups are highly educated: “Very few are only graduates — they are mostly engineers, MBAs, post-graduates and doctors.” Another finding is that most are from metropolises like Mumbai, Pune, Hyderabad and Bangalore. “Social networking sites have the power to reproduce stifled opinions on taboo topics. People discuss things here that they can’t face-to-face,” he says.

But social media expert Gaurav Mishra, who is the CEO of online marketing firm 2020 Social, argues that it’s not the anonymity that comes with a virtual profile which is breeding online caste communities. “The phenomenon is only a reflection of the fact that caste is an important part of identity for many urban Indians,” he says. “Identity is more persistent and real in the virtual space. You are connected to friends, they can see what you are up to. There is nothing unique about it and it is not more or less pronounced in the virtual space. The dysfunctionality exists in the real world, and that is being reflected.”

While Facebook has fewer caste-based groups, friend requests from people who identify one’s caste through their name is not a rarity. Most groups are updated almost every minute, and some of them spew so much venom that scraps are reported and subsequently deleted. Hearteningly, there are also communities against casteism, but, again, sometimes these too are prey to casteism. In one community called ‘We hate caste feeling’ , for instance, a member posted a discussion asking how many members were from the upper castes.

Another finding of the PUKAR research is that there are many more upper-caste groups, with many more members. Mishra believes that the low number of Dalit communities says something about Indian society. “Higher, more powerful castes like Brahmins, Rajputs and Yadavs tend to have more money and better access to the internet. Old disparities are further accentuated by the net,” he says. “Not that the Dalit community isn’t active on the net — it is. But most of the sites have been started by NRI Dalits.”

The caste polarisation on social networking sites is also being used by several political parties. “Politically influenced communities like RSS, BSP, MNS and Shiv Sena are the most updated ones,” says Gangavane.
According to social scientist Shiv Vishwanathan, who is also a senior fellow at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, caste is not an old-fashioned system. “It has adapted to politics, diaspora and technology too. Social networking sites are only newer platforms ,” he says. “The fact that people are still discussing their gotra means it’s important to them and they want to discuss it in a group they feel they can trust and in an environment in which they are sure they won’t be laughed at. Social networking sites provide just that.”

JAATI GUPSHUP
In the ‘modern Yadav girls and boys’ Orkut community (7,924 members), members are asked whether they think Yadav girls are ‘masoom’ (innocent), flirtatious, stylish or ‘dramebaaz’ (dramaqueens) and whether Yadav boys have attitude, are handsome or hot. In the ‘Brahmin Culture and Tradition’ community (8,453), members are asked to name great Brahmins in history. Responses include Parshuram (the Brahmin god who cleansed the world thrice), Chanakya (advisor to Chandragupta) and the Marathi Peshwas. In the ‘I hate caste feeling’ community (42,891), members discuss what they have lost because of the caste system. Responses include “love of life”, “frndship” , mental peace and “seat in good college” In ‘Dalits’ (858), members take a poll on what they think of “Mayawati joining hands with Brahmins in UP”.

” Time can heal everything “….??

This place is rocking now! As I am spending more and more time chatting with people..am exploring new and new people, issues and their perspectives…I have got new good friends..and I am having really meaningful discussions, bebates and arguments with them…Here is one of them…Nitin, an engineer..helping me understand the castediscussions…I am really gladful to him…Thank you Nitin!

me: Hi…Nitin how r u??, wat u think abt my reserach study?

     : Good But wat do you think to do wid d results..??

me: see I just want to know how the caste identites are forming on internet too

    : Hmmm

me: my study will be some hard data for argiung this ..wat u think abt caste on orkut…do u think?..Orkut is becoming platform to discuss caste realted issues??

    : Yeah,many ppl are arguing about tis on orkut n other social networking sites .Hatred is growing amongst them

me: ohhh..i would really want to knw some of their argument..

      :okay..Do u want me to tell bout tat nw..??

me: any link or like that as u are comfortable..

     : I can give u abstract bout tis and can fwd u d links aswell,, but I need some time

Like a day or two

me: how is experience at orkut caste communities?

      : Bad…Relli bad…

me: means….

      : Hatred is growing lyk anything over thr… Ppl go mad on these topics. Its like ego games…

me: i knw I can see that here

      i m reading this all discussions from last 3-4 months

     :Hw come u r interested in this..??

     : I got to go nw… ll catchya l8r…Tc.. Bye

me: ok bye

And here Nitin sends this email….this is fantastic.

Hey dear, 

Here are few interesting links which might help you wid ur research.  

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5394042675454049221

here you can see ppl who say they lost something bcoz of caste system[ppl frm both upper n lower caste] Few losing seats in colleges n few others their dream to marry someone n so on.. 

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=2564766164984941548&na=1&nst=1

here you can see hw madhusudhan in trying to distinguish religion and castesystem… the points are worth giving a thought. 

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5380140192731536928&na=1&nst=1

In d above link you can see ppl discussing bout banning the caste related communities,, reporting them etc etc..

  http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5381115159313386339

some stats on dominant castes

 http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5345844655477257639

can be a case study : Subramania Bharathi (Tamil: சுப்பிரமணிய பாரதி) a famous tamil poet cum freedom fighter fought against the caste system in Hindu society.

 http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5299887470313272705

about some political factors creating nuisance to increase troubles

  http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=13095129&tid=5323347908927904545

I liked karthik’s idea of educating people about the unpleasant affects of caste system.

 http://www.reservationfacts.blogspot.com/

chek tis out…

 http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=1123196&tid=2535528430635452658

Proof of people creating havoc n hatredness in such communities.

 http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=1123196&tid=2499249434595727451&na=1&nst=1

hatredness crossing its limits.. Do we need this..??

 I can send you many more links of various caste communities where you can find nothing but all cheap crap.

 One thing I have to say is ” The more you discuss about caste system, the more you are feeding it ”

 The problem is not wid the communities,, its the problem wid ppl who are visiting these pages and get aggravated on certain topics… Can’t they just ignore things and stop visiting those pages..??  I know it wont solve the crisis but at least doesn’t add up to the problems. 

Anything being discussed in these forums definitely hurts someone’s beliefs which they were following since their childhood thus hurting their ego and aggravating them… No one will be ready to take it and wont like unexpected changes in their lives.

 The only solution to it is ignoring the fights caused by these issues and educating children about the ill effects of the caste system which shud be framed very cautiously so that it wont hurt anyone’s feeling.

” Time can heal everything ”

 I dont know whether the above links helped you or not. Wish you success in your research.

If you need anything pls do ask me.

 Regards,

 Nitin Bali

Want to share with you….

Hello Freinds…

We have started this study almost 6 months back. It is fantastic process. We are meeting new people, reading new blogs and visiting new profile every day. Each day we are forming our understaning and learning in a new way.

Today, I came across this wonderful Blog of Mr. Ravindra Goliya, who has completed his M.Tech from IIT Roorkee. It is worth reading freinds. Please have a look.

http://archive.insightyv.com/?p=249&cpage=1#comment-1744

Thanks

Caste in Contemporary India: Beyond Organic Solidarity -Pauline Kolenda

One of the books which we referred for our study was “Caste in Contemporary India: Beyond Organic Solidarity.” By Pauline Kolenda which gave introduction by quoting other references-

She starts her essay by the quoting important arguments from research already done in the same area:

  • “Caste cannot be abolished in India, and to attempt, it would be of one of the most hazardous operations that was ever performed in a political body. As a religious institution caste will die, as a social institution, it will live and improve”. (Max Muller 1869:353)
  • Max Weber’s “The Religion of India” originally published in 1921, was a particularly scholarly and persuasive argument that Hinduism and the caste system- supported by Hindu beliefs in rebirth, retribution, and reward for meritorious and sinful behavior- would function as obstacles to modern capitalism and industry.
  • Gunnar Myrdal, sees the caste system as an obstacle to economic and political modernization (Myrdal 1972:80,147,177). In contrast, others have found the caste system to be flexible and adaptive, most notably, the anthropologist, Milton Singer (1972, 1973) and the historical sociologist, Barrington Moore, Jr. (Moore, 1966:334).

In this book, both the constancies and the adaptations of the Indian caste system are discussed. The constant feature in caste is its kinship or descent- group structure. On the other hand, a key feature which adapts or is, in some instances, in decline in occupational specialization. The caste system represented by a set of interdependent artisans or servants is in decline. Showing signs of decline also is the system of purity and pollution which ranked castes relative to each other and kept them separate from one another.

The author thinks that, whether there will be a new integration into a new caste system is a key question. She says that evidence suggests a new caste system would have a competitive solidarity, as fused combinations of castes compete with one another which is in contrast to the cooperative but hierarchical organic solidarity of the traditional caste system.

According to her, few, if any, castes in India are entirely modernized. A single caste extending over a region usually includes within its segments that still operate within the traditional caste systems and others which are modernized.

She states that the networks within a caste which are related to the modern sector are a kin- community. It may or may not be organized as a voluntary association. R.S. Khare’s “The Changing Brahmins”, describes the kin community of the Kanyakubja Brahmins which is organized as a caste association with a newspaper and annual meetings. The primary purpose of such an organization appears to be the maintenance of the connubium and the castes’ subculture and sense of identity. It does not have any important political activities (Khare, 1970).

On the other hand, educated caste members with modern occupations may organize as a pressure group or even a political party. As such, a caste association can compete as a corporate body with other pressure groups for political and economic resources. This type of organization represents a new kind of solidarity, a competitive equilibrium. Needless to say, the competing units need not be caste structures. They could be based on other solidarities- regional, linguistic, professional or social class.

She feels that during the period of “organic solidarity”, when there was a cooperative caste system, castes tended to fission, as sub-sections wished to gain a higher status than their caste fellows through Sanskritization or through obtaining wealth or power. Under a system of competitive solidarity the reverse occurs, and processes of fusion of sub castes and fusion of castes tend to take place. Three kinds of fusion can be identified-

  • On the job and in newer neighborhoods, persons of different sub castes and of different castes meet; they are usually of approximately equal caste rank. Neighborhood or office group solidarity (Khare, 1973) develops. Barriers between the top 3 castes in Bengal were lowered during the 19th century because they shared government jobs and came to form inter-caste social groups.(Broomfield 1968:15)
  • Second, inter- sub caste marriages takes place- promoting a fusion of sub castes. It may be essentially difficult to find a sufficiently educated bridegroom for an educated daughter within her own sub caste, but one might be found in a neighboring sub caste.
  • Third, democratic politics foster the fusion of sub castes and of adjacent castes in order for parties of substantial size to form.

She concludes by saying that, “In all 3 stages, the basic social segment has been the endogamous descent group, the kinship nature of which has changed less than its ritual, economic and political functions. The descent- group structure has persisted although its functions have differed in the contexts first of mechanical solidarity, then of competitive solidarity. A new system of competitive descent- groups is emerging as modern economic benefits and political power are prizes to be won rather than inheritances ascribed by birth. In the political and economic spheres of modern Indian life, ascribed rights are being replaced by goals achieved through competitive achievements. Yet the descent group persists in modern India, although the segment is a segmentary one; rather than an organic one”.